How many times has this question been asked?
Is it right for a church to spend money to promote an issue that is considered a moral and spiritual issue in that church?
hmmmmmmm
duh
The actual Mormon church spent very little money on the issue.
Why do you get to be the only one that determines what a civil right will be in society?
Why is your opinion of what a civil right should be any more valid than a religious persons?
Everyone that lives in a society has a say in what the protected rights of that society will be, religious or not. Only atheists should be allowed to express their opinions, vote and try to speak out against what should and should not be a civil right????
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hmmm crystal
how much time and money have you given to the poor?
You could sell your computer and donate it to the poor.
The Mormon church has an entire welfare program set up to help the poor and a relief organizations for disasters and other emergencies and send that help around the world.
Why dont you put your money where your mouth is, get off of here and volunteer your time you spend on here to charity and give your money you waste on things you really dont need to help others?
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Araina
You need to go back and study the Constitution a little better.
Gay marriage is a states right issue and not a single federal court has ruled that banning gay marriage is a violation of anyones Constitutional rights, in fact the fed courts refuse to take up the issue on the fed level when the DOMA issue comes to them because they see no Constitutional rights being violated by the act.
Your knowledge of the law is incorrect and your interpretations of the Constitution are meaningless because its just your opinion and your opinion means nothing under the law. Only the fed courts opinions matter when it comes to interpreting the Constitution.
The states have the right to ban gay marriage, under the law right now in the US. Gay marriage is not a federally protected civil right in the US right now. That is an absolute legal fact and your opinions about the Constitution doesnt change legal facts.
People really shouldnt talk about the law and the Constitution if they really dont have a clue what they are talking about. It just makes their position look desperate.
You can quote the 14th amendment all you want but until there is a fed court ruling confirming that your interpretation of the 14th amendment holds any validity then its meaningless in terms of defining what is and is not legal in the US.
Newsflash, there is no such fed court ruling declaring that the 14th amendment can be interpreted to declare gay marriage as a protected federal right. In fact there are fed court rulings that declare just the opposite.Is it right for the Mormon Church to spend it’s tithing money to fight against gay marriage?
Your additional comments shows your bias.
You made the assumption that gay marriage is a civil right and that mormons are fighting against something that is a civil right.
Just because you think it should be a civil right doesnt mean your position is any more valid than Mormons that disagree.
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The Church did not spend ANY of its tithing money on fighting against gay marriage. It is very carefully audited, and it is not allowed to spend the money on political campaigns. Tithing money is spent on upkeep of buildings, materials, and the salaries of staff - bear in mind the church has an entirely lay ministry. Church members also donate to humanitatian and welfare funds.
The money spent on fighting gay marriage came from individual members of the Church, and they were not asked to do this by Church leaders. They chose to do it because their consciences told them to stand up for what is right.
They're not civil rights until they're recognized as such.
I'm not a Mormon. I disagree with the Mormons.
But they have a right to vote and to speak about their opinions on things, just the way you do. That has nothing to do with the ';separation of church and state.';
The ';separation of church and state'; means that the Congress can make no law respecting or promoting a belief system. The government cannot endorse a religious faith.
But members of a religious faith have every right to express their political opinions.
Legally they had a right to. A not for profit organization cannot support candidates for political office but they are allowed to support one side or another of nonpartisan issues.
Even though they have the legal right to do so, I assume you know that it was the members of the Mormon church and not the church itself that donated dollars in support of Prop 108, as contrasted say to the Catholic church which donated cash.
I assume you know that the Mormon church has stated it does not object to Civil Unions. Under the California Civil Union statute the parties to a civil union have all of the legal rights that a married couple have and that former members of a legal union have all the legal rights that a formerly married couple have. This means that neither the actions of the CA Supreme Court nor the passing of Prop 8 changed the legal protection of anyone. Therefore the 14th amendment would not apply.
You have not kept up with your current events. You get at best a D for not doing your homework.
Tithing money did not go into the effort. The time and money was individually contributed. What the church did was to encourage the members to support this effort to protect fundamental doctrinal rights. Church and state are separate but there are certain things that the church is morally obligated to support or to combat. We cannot condone activities that are contrary to the teachings of God. We are duty bound in our conscience to support the teachings of Christ and to make every effort to support righteousness.
Marriage was ordained of God for the welfare of His children on the earth. Marriage is the foundation of society and same sex relationships do not fit into that doctrine. They cannot multiply and replenish, they cannot fulfil and obey God's commandments. How then can we turn our backs and condone such activity?
So it was that the church encouraged our individual support of Prop 8, to save marriage as it has been, is and always should continue to be.
Nowhere in the constitution will you find the words. “Separation of church and state”. It does say the government will not establish a government church, or interfere with people practicing their religion. In other words, Government may not interfere with religion, but it says nothing about religion influencing government. I know of no religion that requires its members to be gay and married there for banning gay marriage does not interfere with any ones first amendment rights.
Marriage is on the verge of becoming a hollow, meaningless concept in America (between 40% and 50% of first marriages end in divorce), and families are disintegrating (4 our of 10 births are to unwed mothers).
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The Mormon Church believes (and openly communicates) that its actions are necessary to preserve marriage and the family as living, functional institutions in America. Their actions are not illegal or in violation of any IRS regulations.
Hmm you should probably look up separation of church and state...you dont seem to have a good handle on it
Any church or organization has the right to support the morals that they teach. It would be ridiculous not too. Think about it.
The church has and will continue to fight for morals for the rest of time, so I'd get used to it.
And last of all, the LDS vote was somewhere around 2% so you are really just misinformed, mimicking someone else, or are in desperate need of a scapegoat. The prop would have passed with or without the church.
Boo to your question!
If it's against their beliefs, they can spend their funds on what will support them, yes. Tithing goes to the payroll for the church's staff, utilities and other bills, and all else goes to organizations or the miscellaneous category as long as it falls under what they believe in to help support their cause as Mormons. I'm not Mormon, but that's how all churches work.
Sure it is....it's their money, not yours.
They're not fighting against civil rights, they're fighting to protect marriage. They church has not put up a fight over same-sex couples having equal rights as married couples, they are simply fighting to keep the definition of marriage to mean what it's meant for the past 6000 or so years.
Separation of church and state refers to the fact that the Government won't sponsor a religion. That doesn't mean that only atheists should be involved in political affairs.
Another fair question could be: Do you believe in democracy? 30 times this issue has been put on the ballot. It's lost all 30 times.
If this were purely a civil rights issue, then the church wouldn't have gotten involved at all. The issue concerning same-sex marriage, however, is not simply a civil issue. It touches on fundamental Christian beliefs, which makes it a moral problem...and a church has every right to get involved in a problem they believe offends or at least concerns God.
In any case, though, the Mormon church didn't spend any tithing money on this cause. Tithing money only goes towards upkeep of buildings and the like (not even to salaries). Members donated privately, but when the tallies were made, those private donations all went under the heading of the LDS (Mormon) church. That being the case, this question is a bit moot.
cadisneygirl - ';Why do you get to be the only one that determines what a civil right will be in society?';
This has nothing to do with determining ';what a civil right will be';.
It has to do with one group of people being denied a right that is granted to another group, which is a violation of the 14th Amendment.
Chris - ';Yes its what they believe';
Their beliefs do not supersede my Constitutionally-guaranteed equal rights.
Addendum II: cadisneygirl - You typed an awful lot, so let me just summarize your argument:
';The Equal Protection Clause protecting the rights of same-sex couples has so far been ignored by the courts, so their rights aren't legally valid.';
Technically true, perhaps. But even after slavery was abolished, blacks didn't have their rights acknowledged until that law was enforced.
That does not make yours a good argument. In fact, it makes it a woefully immoral one, as history has shown time and again, and as it will once more when the courts are forced to stop turning a blind eye to the letter and the spirit of the 14th Amendment.
For those unfamiliar with the Equal Protection Clause, it states: ';no state shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.';
That is not terribly difficult to understand. And I'm sure you are familiar with precedence on Intermediate Scrutiny, cadisneygirl.
First of all it's their money and they have the right to waste it on all of the losing causes that they care to.
Ignoring for a second the fact that States Right is an anachronism that properly died an honorable death at Appomattox in April of 1865
,from a practical perspective I don't get how marriage cannot not be federal issue
I guess if a legally married couple never traveled beyond the borders of the states that they were legally married in then I guess that the concept of States Rights would apply
However we are a very mobile people who expect that our marriages would be legally recognized in all of the states that we might travel to , thru, work in and reside in
To say that a legally married gay couple can only travel to , thru , work in and reside in states that their marriages are recognized in ghettoizes their marriages by forcing them to live only in the places where their marriages are recognized%26gt;and this insanity is being promoted by normally patriotic Americans who supposedly believe in the sanctity of marriage %26gt;Amazing.Truly Amazing
I believe it is the Mormon church members who are tithing. A person can spend their money on whatever political organization they wish. Even the pastor/priest or whatever they have can donate his money to a political organization.
I don't think there have been any official church checks involved. THere has been alot of hot air about church involvement, but no evidence.
In order to qualify as a protected class under civil rights law, our courts have consistently held that a class must meet three criteria. They (1) must exhibit an immutable, non-behavior-based characteristic such as race or skin color; (2) they must have experienced a history of discrimination resulting in class-wide economic deprivation; and (3) they must be politically powerless. Gays do NOT meet #'s 1 %26amp; 3. Therefore, they are not being denied any civil rights.
At least, in Ohio. I don't know about California. But it should be all over.
Besides, THE CHURCH did not spend any money on this. the MEMBERS did.
The people of California were asked and they answered. The courts are upholding that decision from waht I understand. That's life.
Actually it was mostly church members spending their own money to fight against gay marriage... the church only used tithing funds to send church leaders to cali to talk about how important it is to fight against it...
I find nothing wrong with it and I hope some of my money was used in that cause
If we had done anything illegal there would have already been something done about it. We were not secretive about what we did and the only investigations that have been done have been to determine if we did what we claimed we did.
Additionally the only thing the Constitution states about religion and the Government is that the government should not pass any laws about the establishment of religion. And that was put in to prevent the government from establishing a national religion like what is common in many of the countries that the early pioneers came from had came from, so that the people could be free to worship as they pleased.
Religion has everything to do with Politics. People who say they should have nothing to do with each other confound me with their ridiculous ideas.
No Religion in Politics? That's like saying ';Please disregard your beliefs and personal values when voting.';
Just doesn't add up.
Now I'm no expert on your Constitution, but I'm fairly sure Separation of Church %26amp; State is about Congress not making laws that give preference to one religion over another...
What does the Church giving money to this cause have to do with the law-making process of Congress?
Could you please explain to me?
:-) Thanks
Most of the money came from people's income after they paid their tithing.
Since when is using your money for a poltical cause wrong? People have a right to do so, just as much as those who are for Gay marriage.
Get your facts straight.
Ironic but the side that was for gay marriage spent more money and still lost.
Edit: And the church does use a lot of it's money for welfare needs.
because it's apparently more important than feeding the poor.. why feed a village for a year when you can buy a commercial?
but just to be fair, it wasn't just the mormons...both sides of prop 8 could have made their point and spent all that money elsewhere.
*cadisney- I do already hun...but thanks for the suggestion. I never said mormons don't do charity work and my comment was regarding both sides of the issue anyway, so there's no need to get all defensive about it.
It is illegal for them to spend money directly on any political campaign. It would violate their tax-exempt status. But they can encourage their membership to support one position or cause or course of action as they see fit, as long as the action is not itself illegal.
Not your money, not your business, if it your money you get to spend it as you wish also it's over and done get on with your life.
No, churches should stay out of politics and mind their own business when it comes to other people's lives and relationships. If two men or two women get married is it going to affect their lives? Their ability to worship?
The church did not use tithing money to fight aganist gay marriage. It was members of the church using their political right to fund something they were opposed to. It is their constitutional right to speak out.
Yes it is right for the Mormon church to spend it`s tithing money to fight against gay marriage.
Gay marriage is not a civil right, so they can fight against gay marriage.
Because we believe that it is wrong.
We can chose to do whatever we wish with tithing money.
Even if you don't approve.
they should be investigated by the IRS
Utah must be boring. The Mormon leadership is obsessed with preventing gays from getting married.
Mormons fought against the US government in the 1800's because their religion was polygamous. Until oops a divine revelation changed that.
They didn't permit blacks to be a part of a church and taught that they were cursed, until God happened to change his mind at about the same time civil rights movement was happening. What a coincidence.
They fought against the Equal Rights Amendment for women.
They are on the wrong side of history once again.
The LDS church claimed it spent nothing until an investigation was started by the State of CA. Then the Mormons admitted to spending $190,000 on the campaign. That was used to organize the members to spend their own millions.
Mormons like to claim they spend a lot on charity. On their own website, however, it says they gave about a billion - over 24 years, from 13 million members. That's 3 dollars per member per year. I guess a billion sounds better.
Three buck a year each?? I defy you to find a human in this country who hasn't spent more than that on helping their fellows in need!
Yet the church spends $190,000 on hating gays, and 2 billion on a downtown shopping mall. The priorities are obvious.
Social control. It's the same thing that the Pharisees were doing to the pre-Christian writers of the New Testament. Institute a set of laws and just tell the ignorant masses that they came from God so no one questions. However, if you're discussing this topic within the parameters of Christianity, then they probably did come from God. But, being a Christian one can take a different approach to interpreting theOld Testament laws than they would if they were Jewish.
As a Christian I believe they are not being good stewards when it comes to money. Find some poor people and feed them. Find them a good place to live and clean clothes. If they need help with education then offer it. Help a widow who is struggling or a single mother. It isn't right to you and me but it is their money to do with as these please. So many things in life that we cannot change but must accept.
i think any church that uses it's tax exempt donations to get involved in politics should lose their tax exemption status. the reason churches get tax exemptions is because they're suppose to be using the money they make for charity work.
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